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Apr 18 2004, 09:18 PM
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#16
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![]() Advanced Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,926 Joined: 15-September 03 From: Mid Michigan Member No.: 299 |
Yes, and that was the entire point made in my documentary, MAX FLEISCHER'S KO-KO SONG CAR-TUNES, which won the Platinum Short Subject Award last year in The Houston International Film Festival.
Recent histories give credit to these, and also sound cartoons that were being released at the time STEAMBOAT WILLIE was recorded in 1928. It is not so much its place in history as it is the execution of sound that gives STEAMBOAT WILLIE its importance over all others. The same refers to THE JAZZ SINGER. AS already outlined above, deForest was producing sound films five years before with a more practical system. But it was the artistic aspect of THE JAZZ SINGER that brought about the sound era. -------------------- Ray Pointer[font="Comic Sans MS"][/font]
"Inkwell Images" |
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Apr 18 2004, 10:59 PM
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#17
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Advanced Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 193 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 645 |
QUOTE (Ray Pointer @ Apr 18 2004, 12:14 PM) QUOTE (JDWeil @ Apr 18 2004, 02:27 AM) I would like to the previous post this information: I don't see how the Fleischers coulod have remade part ofMy Old Kentucky Home in 1928 since the Song Cartoon series was a dead issue since the middle of 1927. For one thing, Fleischer had a sound ayatem to record the track with. In 1928 there were only two sound systems commercialy available (The Vitaphone and Movietone) and each was owned by rival studios (Vitaphoen by Warner Bros. and Movietone by Fox) and there is no record that Fleischer used either of these in 1928 since he was associated with Paramount at that time. In fact the Fleischer studio ahd been completely restructered (Fleischer had thrown his Inkwelll Studs. into voluntary bankrupcy and reorganized it as The Fleischer Studios). All oif the Song Cartoon entries were distributed by a company called Red Seal (owned and operated by Inkwell Studs.) As for the PhonoFilm system, there's this: Though honored on his lifetime, Lee DeForest was a man whom the word charlatan was writ large over him. The only invention of his that could be called his was the audion tube and even tehn he didn't really know how it worked. All of his other inventions used stolen or borrowed technology and PhonoFilm was no exception. The heart of the PhonoFilm system was a transducer that Deforest had borrowed from Theodore Case who was engaged in similar research. In 19223 DeForest announced that his PhonoFilm recording method was available all without a word of credit to Case. DefOrest produced a number of live-action shorts (includeing a two-reeler starring Chic Sale) but in spite of his grandstanding he was only able to attract only one commercial producer; Max Fleischer (and possibly Lou Weiss) and Fleischer didn't make features. Around mid 1927 Case and his asssociate Earl Sponable succeeded in getting the kinks out of their system and had sold it to William Fox who patented it under the name Fox-Case and gave the trademark Movietone. (Fox also bought the patents to another sound system, the German system Tri-Ergon). At that point Case told DeForest he wanted his transducer returned and DeForest was out of the sound recording business. The Fleischer Song Cartoons would continue for awhile as silent shorts but they would be discontinued when Fleoscher allied himself with Paramount. Fleischer returned to silent film production until 1929 when he produced The Streets Of New York, the first of the Screen Song series This is an interesting twisting of facts, many of which I am privy to. First I have stated before that there were sound versions of certain song films that were rereleased by Alfred J. Weiss in 1928. Here is the reason. There are two versions that I've come across on MY OLD KENTUCKY HOME and TRAMP, TRAMP, TRAMP. The silent vesion of TRAMP uses the standard animated opening of the silent series with different bouncing ball lyrics footage than in the sound version. Also the tempo is different. The sound version had credits to other people than Max and Dave Fleischer, but the Inkwell Studios end title art remains at the end of the film. MY OLD KENTUCKY HOME has had the animation of the dog added to the same bouncing ball footage from the silent version. There is also a longer ending gag with the black "laundry girl" hopping into a wagon and extending a watermelon slice in front of a Black man like dangling a carrot in front of a mule. In the silent version, the girl hops onto a toy train and leaves. Weiss had acquired a number of silent cartoons by 1928, and was adding soundtracks to them, including a number of Disney's ALICE COMEDIES, and OUT OF THE INKWELL films. The studios as you cite did not own or controll the recording devices. There was also RCA, which as you probably realized formed RKO-Radio Pictures to enter the sound film market as well. Although William Fox had bought a number of sound patents (including the Tri-Ergon System), he did not have exclusive ownership of the Variable Density recording method, and went into a partnership with Western Electric, who was about to abandon the Vitaphone system in favor of the more practical sound-on-film method. And in 1928 there were other similar optical recording systems available, the most famous being the bootleg Powers Cinephone used by Walt Disney to record STEAMBOAT WILLIE and all of his first sound cartoons. From the way they sound, the Weiss sound reissues sometimes sound like the early Disney sound cartoons, as the dynamics of the recordings in these were actually inferior to those of the tracks on the SONG CAR-TUNES originally produced using the Phonofilm Process under Fleischer and the Red Seal Company. And the Red Seal Company, which consisted of a chain of 36 theaters on the East coast lasted for only three years, going out of business in 1927. This coincided with the demise of the deForest Phonofilms Company as well and the near bankruptcy of Out of the Inkwell Films, Inc. It was Alfred J. Weiss, whose company, Artcraft--a later division of Paramount, who rescued Fleischer and teamed him with Paramount in 1927. Weiss became a problem for Fleischer, and after entering litigation, Fleischer filed bankruptcy in 1929, to reorganize as Fleischer Studios with Weiss out of the picture. In the meantime, Weiss was re-releasing silent Fleischer and Disney cartoons without their being compensated. Under the Paramount contract, Fleischer continued the KOKO films under a new name, THE INKWELL IMPS to avoid complications associated with the dissolved Red Seal Company. This series continued to be released until the summer of 1929. At the same time, Fleischer revived the song films as SCREEN SONGS with the first being THE SIDEWALKS OF NEW YORK in 1929. Theodore Case worked with deForest for a short time when deForest leased a type of Photoelectric Cel invented by Case that was needed in improving the recording and playback. They worked in the open on this with the full knowledge of what the other was doing. This is a fact supported by deForest's lab associate, Dr. Elwin P. Meyers, who later testified to this during deForest's lawsuit that started in 1928. And in some of the original Phonofilm title cards, deForest DID INDEED give credit to Case, as it clearly shows "DEFOREST-CASE PATENTS" in the title frame. Within two years, Case knew enough to go off on his own, and he and Sponable sold Case's version of Phonofilm to William Fox. The problem with it was amplification and clarity, however. This was the key that everyone needed, and was the source of controversy and jealousy regarding deForest since they all needed vacuum tubes to amplify sound, and this was deForest's patent. Frankly, whatever improvements resulted from Case's work, they do not sound to be greatly different from what deForest already had before. In 1928, deForest filed suit for patent infringement against Western Electric. It was a very complicated issue with counter suits and loose interpretations of licenses to varous companies. Basically, when deForest had licensed Western Electric for the use of vacuum tubes in 1917, it was with the implication that they would be used to amplify telephone signals. However, there was a clause in the license that gave Western Electric rights to anything that deForest invented during that term of the six year license. It was during this period that deForest was experimenting with optical recording, and because of this, Western felt they owned the technology. This was also assumed when Case sold his "improvement" to Fox, and as Fox went into a joint venture with Western Electric, they collectively felt they had the rights to the technology. The lawsuit went on for eight years. Finally in 1936, The Supreme Court ruled based on all registered patents going back to 1918-1919 and onward, deForest was legally "the first to invent." In 1959, the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences awarded Dr. Lee deForest the Special Lifetime Achievement Oscar for his"pioneering efforts the brought sound to the motion picture." From this point in time, we can take for granted the final results. But what many fail to realize is that the entire process had to be pioneered, as there were no cameras that existed that could photograph sound waves onto film. The aperature of the picture area had to be made narrower to accomodate the soundtrack area. A method of printing had to be devised. DeForest worked closely with Eastman Kodak to discover film stocks that would photograph sound well, which resulted in finer grain films. He had to devise developing (Gamma) standards for film negatives, which previously did not exist. He had to experiement with various photographic speeds to determine which would most intelligably record sound. And most of all, he had to build the equipment to playback the sound films. All these things did not exist before, and are many details that are not taken into consideration. As the producer of FIRST SOUND OF MOVIES, a documentary on the invention and first public display of the deForest Phonofilms 80 years ago, I have gained a great deal of insight to this story, which I believe qualfies me to address these issues with an amount of authority. I have also been involved with the research of the career of Max Fleischer for 30 years. I have been reserecting many of his silent film classics including 1/2 of the pre-Paramount OUT OF THE INKWELL films, and a number of the early KO-KO SONG CAR-TUNES with the original pre-1928 soundtracks. With some 700 post, numerous questions I have answered on this subject, contributions I've already made to books, and articles by other researchers, I do believe that the validity of most anything that I have to present here is well substantiated because I have done the research. I do not wish to leave the impression that I am a "know-it-all," but I have spent a lot of years with this subject matter, and am offering quite a bit more than convoluted, misinformed opinions. It is not fair to others who may not wish to be engrossed in all these technical details to raise issues such as these in this forum. But I believe I have presented satisfactory evidence of the qualfications of this post and any others that I have posted in the past or may continue to post in the future. As I have stated before, The Fleischers had to send out silent versions of their Song Cartoons because there were very few theatres that had sound projectors at that time. But what made My Old Kentucky Home unique was that it was the only (to my knowledge) Song Cartoon that had spoken dialogue. I also have two different versions of this short in my library. The first one you are probably familiar with. It's the restored version that was issued by Inkwell Images. The other one is from Video Yesteryear and it's probably the Weiss re-issue (though Video Yesteryear put a 1932 date on it). As for ownership of the sound systems, I believe that is subject to interpretation. In the case of Movietone, Fox did buy the system from Case and put his(Fox's) name to the patent which would indicate that Fo did own the system or at least part of it. (It has always puzzled me why Walt Disney did not make use of the Movietone recording system when he came to New York to record the soundtrack for Steamboat Wille and Fox had a studio in Manhatten). Where the Powers Cinephone system is concerned, the patents covering the system were suspect, and were subsequently invalidated in the courts. (And this is the system that Disney used!) In the case of Vitaphone, a separate corporation was set up to dvelope it called apropriately enough The Vitaphone Corp.. This company was 80% owned by Warner Brothers, while the remaining 20% was owned by Western Electric and an individual investor named Charles Rich. Warners would later buy out their shares in teh company so that the Vitaphone Corp. was wholly owned by Warner Bros. It is one of history's ironies that in this age of digital recording that one of today's theatrical digital recording methods (DTS) is a sound-on-disc system linked to the projector by a control track. Well what goes around comes around. |
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Apr 19 2004, 01:49 AM
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#18
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![]() Advanced Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,926 Joined: 15-September 03 From: Mid Michigan Member No.: 299 |
The details you mention, I am well aware of since I am Inkwell Images. I have learned that the talking dog was done in the 1928 sound version of MY OLD KENTUCKY HOME, not the 1924 version, which was silent. This still preceeds any talking characters in a Disney cartoon by a year or two.
The reason why Disney did not use Movietone or RCA is because they would not make the post recording the way he had planned it. It was also a matter of expense as well, and Powers made a better deal, the details of which have been documented. It is a mute point going into those studios who owned sound processes. Most did not. Fox and Warners had a stake in it, yes. But Western Electric remained the industry giant followed by RCA. These were wholly independent corporations separate from the studios, as the studios signed licensing agreements. And now, back to the discussion on animation. -------------------- Ray Pointer[font="Comic Sans MS"][/font]
"Inkwell Images" |
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Apr 19 2004, 09:13 AM
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#19
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Advanced Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 48 Joined: 13-March 04 Member No.: 644 |
Mr Pointer and Weil : bravo ! I believe you gave us an accurate clarification on that part of animation history.
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Apr 19 2004, 07:56 PM
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#20
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![]() Advanced Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,926 Joined: 15-September 03 From: Mid Michigan Member No.: 299 |
Here's one for Le Petite. Who was the first cartoon animator?
-------------------- Ray Pointer[font="Comic Sans MS"][/font]
"Inkwell Images" |
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Apr 20 2004, 09:53 AM
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#21
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Advanced Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 48 Joined: 13-March 04 Member No.: 644 |
I believe it depends on what your definition of a cartoon animator is.
Do we yalk about magical lanterns ? Then, these very first animators could be Christiaan Huygens, Danish, or Athanasius Kircher, German, (there is still a polemic about who is the very 1st inventor). Do we talk about phenakistiscopes (or fantascopes, or stroboscopes) ? Then, these appeared in 1832, invented in the same time by Joseph Plateau, Belgian, and Simon Von Stampfer, Austrian. Zootropes ? (daedalum) Then, this is William Horner, two years later. At this time, animated drawings are limited to cycles of 11-20 (rarely more) images. Or something between puppeting and projection, with the magical lanterns, or mechanical abstractions (kaleidoscopes). Then appears the folioscope, or flip-book, invented by Linnett (1868). And animation isn't inevitably cyclic anymore. 1870 : Etienne-Jules Marey, Frenchman, scientist, decides to study the flying birds' motion. During the following years, he will invent several chronophotographic systems, and then, for his numerous researches, which included other subjects than birds : human, horses, even elephants..., he will trace drawing from those photograms. That is some kind of rotoscope process, partial as the goal wasn't to produce animated drawings but concentrate on details of the wings' motion. (for chronophotography, there also are Muybridge and Ottomar Anschutz). 1880 : Frenchman Emile Reynaud (I believe this is the name Mr Pointer was thinking about...) invents his most complex praxinoscope, with an electric engine. This apparatus used light concentration, mirrors, removable foregrounds... This is a sophisticated variant of the zootrope system. Twelve years later, Reynaud presents his "Theatre optique" at Grevin Wax Museum, Paris. A big apparatus with cranks, big horizontal reels. There are transparent characters painted on each "crafty photogram". There were two projection systems in that apparatus : one for the animated drawings, another one for the scenery. So the characters appeared half-transparent on the background. During that showing, Reynaud projected three shorts : "Un Clown et ses chiens", "Pauvre Pierrot" and "Un bon bock". Reynaud's program was named "Les Pantomimes Lumineuses". Three years later, the Lumiere brothers will begin to work with their cinematograph... and a few years later Reynaud will die, financially ruined, exhausted, highly depressed. Before, he found enough energy and will to throw his films and machinery into the Seine. Only two fims have survived, have been restored and are regularly projected at the Cinematheque Francaise : "Pauvre Pierrot" and "Autour d'une Cabine", sounded with their original musical composition. But if Mr Pointer thinks about animation with a camera. Then the 1st cartoon animator may be James Stuart Blackton, with "The Enchanted Drawings" (not really animation as decomposed motion, but some kind of limited animation effects as George Melies and Segundo De Chomon could use a little later, combined with chalk drawings), and a few years later, "Humorous Phases of Funny Faces." By the way, there is a little note in a cardboard included in the Library of Congress' video titled "Origins of American Animation" saying about "The Enchanted Drawing" : Copyrighted in 1900, it was probably filmed three or four years earlier". Does anyone have some more info about this ? |
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Apr 20 2004, 02:47 PM
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#22
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![]() Advanced Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,926 Joined: 15-September 03 From: Mid Michigan Member No.: 299 |
The term "cartoon animator" is already defined. It means exactly that. And by that definition, Emile Cohl qualifies as "Le Grandpare de les designes Animes"--The Grandfather of Animated Cartoons. What J. Stuart Blackton did was "trick films" using various stop motion techniques with sketch pad set ups, cutouts and tricks with glass.
These were not cartoons, and they were not drawn animated figures in the ture sense of what animated cartoons are. There has been some indication that some of the Blackton experiments may have been done as early as 1898. But from all evidence, Cohl in France seems to be the first CARTOON animator. Winsor McCay followed after him in the United States a number of years later. -------------------- Ray Pointer[font="Comic Sans MS"][/font]
"Inkwell Images" |
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Apr 20 2004, 04:38 PM
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#23
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![]() Advanced Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 164 Joined: 7-April 04 Member No.: 687 |
Some of the old tech talk is sort of perversely amusing to me because I have an electronics degree from Iowa Western Community College (and even scored 90.9% on the USPS ET-09!) and love "retro-tech" (look for "Tube Punk" in the vague future"). They even have a Lee DeForest building on campus because he was born and raised locally.
MAS |
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Apr 20 2004, 09:06 PM
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#24
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Advanced Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 193 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 645 |
QUOTE (Ray Pointer @ Apr 20 2004, 06:47 AM) The term "cartoon animator" is already defined. It means exactly that. And by that definition, Emile Cohl qualifies as "Le Grandpare de les designes Animes"--The Grandfather of Animated Cartoons. What J. Stuart Blackton did was "trick films" using various stop motion techniques with sketch pad set ups, cutouts and tricks with glass. These were not cartoons, and they were not drawn animated figures in the ture sense of what animated cartoons are. There has been some indication that some of the Blackton experiments may have been done as early as 1898. But from all evidence, Cohl in France seems to be the first CARTOON animator. Winsor McCay followed after him in the United States a number of years later. Blackton's Humorous Phases Of Funny Faces(1906)* is generally regarded as the first animated cartoon made for the motion picture camera, but remember, there were other cartoonists that were active at that time, Beside the aforementioned Emil Cohl, there was the English cartoonist Walter Boothe whose Magic Fountain Pen(also 1906) was made at that same time. But this is still a matter of interpetation. (I hope we're not going to take this back to Lescaux cave paintings) |
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Apr 20 2004, 10:13 PM
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#25
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![]() Advanced Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,926 Joined: 15-September 03 From: Mid Michigan Member No.: 299 |
The key word that people are missing here is CARTOON! Blackton did stop motion trick films. These were not animated cartoons. The implications are that these were early discorveries of the possiblities of animation. But in terms of actual animated cartoons, regardless of the very limited popping eyes and changes of expressions in the drawings on his pad, these are NOT animated cartoons in the true sense of what defines cartoon animation. This was clearly displayed in Cohl's work. Although I'm aware of the existence of Booth, nothing of his work seems to determine his place along with Cohl.
In EMILE COHL, CARICATURE, AND FILM, Donald Crafton devotes several pages on Walter Booth, referencing his 1906 film, "Hand of the Artist." "Although it has been called the first British animated cartoon, nothing in the catalog description suggests that the film used any true animation." In BEFORE MICKEY, Crafton writes: "There is little question that Blackton influenced the English discoverer animation, Walter R. Booth, a professional magician who, like Melies, reognized the potential of the cinema and began directing films produced by R.W. Paul around 1898. Booth's specialty was a type of transformation in which a drawing of a person was changed into a living figure by the use of dissolves or stop-action substitution, a trick he probably used in 'The Hand of the Artist.' Although this has been called the first British animated cartoon, the 1906 catalog description almost certainly indicates the stop-action technique instead." p.25 "During the first year of cinematography, Georges Melies became the lightning cartoonist of the French Cinema. Billing himself as the 'dessinateur express,' Melies sketched caricatures of Adolphe Thiers, Chamberlain, Queen Victoria, and von Bismark in front of his camera. In these 1896 films, the drawing speed was accelerated by intentionally slow cranking of the camera. Soon Melies introduced the element of magic to the subject in 'Le Livre magique (The Magic Book),' a 1900 film that showed the artist transforming his full-sized drawings into living people through stop-action substitution. This film was also released in England, where Walter Booth made an imitaiton called 'Artistic Creation.'" p.50 Crafton continues with the following observations: "Cohl was the first to bring to the cinema the necessary qualities of intellect, imagination, patience, and the obsessive love of drawing that would mark other great animators...The first film Cohl directed,'Fantasmagorie,' was also agruably the first true animated cartoon...Despite its short length (only two minutes), it is recognizable as a modern cartoon." p.60 Both Cohl and Booth existed within the same time period. But based on surviving evidence and the studied documentation above, Emil Cohl seems to be the first recognized cartoon animator, and deserves to be honored as such. -------------------- Ray Pointer[font="Comic Sans MS"][/font]
"Inkwell Images" |
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Apr 21 2004, 01:05 AM
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#26
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Advanced Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 193 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 645 |
I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with that assessment. Blackton did do trick films, but he was also a newspaper illustrator. And Humorous Phases(which I've seen) is animated. The film was made by aiming a camera at a blackboard and drawing, erasing, and redrawing the image to obtain movement all in front of the camera. Remarkably, this method is similar to the "spit" method employed by Al Sens in his See, Hear. Talk film. The method employed by Emil Cohl (and I've seen Phantasmogorie as well.) was simple line animation printed in reverse to match the blackboard drawing. Cohl used more drawings, but Phantasmogorie was made a year later than Humorous Phases
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Apr 21 2004, 08:07 AM
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#27
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![]() Advanced Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,926 Joined: 15-September 03 From: Mid Michigan Member No.: 299 |
I am well aware of Blackton's background. His "cartoooning" ability was serviceable as a journalist, but he was no match for people like WInsor McCay on an artistic level. I don't wish to make this personal, but I do notice a habit you have of always contra-dicting my responses to subjects, sometimes ones you have introduced. I am not in a contest to prove anything or "show off" in any way. But this is starting to become a bit tiresome, if you'll pardon my saying so.
After all the evidence presented, you can disaggree, nit-pick and hang onto petty tangents 'till the cows come home, Mr. Weil. But there is a definite difference between trick films and actual animated cartoons of the type that Cohl and McCay made famous. What they made were real animated cartoons--the first ones. What you continue to focus on, and fail to understand is the difference between trick films and animated cartoons. This has already been explained in full detail with quotations from authorative sources. But for some reason you wish to continue to argue against what has already been laid out with the greatest patience and respect on your behalf, ex-plaining in the fullest documented detail to help in the understanding of this issue. You can choose to either accept, or reject these detailed and reasoned facts at your discretion. But in so doing, you may be closing your eyes to the truth which has been laid before youl. With this and all the above said, could we please move onto something else? -------------------- Ray Pointer[font="Comic Sans MS"][/font]
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Apr 21 2004, 08:09 AM
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#28
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Advanced Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 48 Joined: 13-March 04 Member No.: 644 |
According several sources, the word "cartoon" may come from the italian word "cartone", in fact "cartone animato". That is to say : animated drawing. No less, no more. If a cartoon is a film which contains interpolation between drawings, then there is cartoon animation in "Humorous Phases of Funny Faces".
At the end of the intro, there is an animated decorative spiral. After, two characters have their eyes which moves, change their expression, interpolated with several chalk drawings. Their mouths move the same way. There is animated smoke. Et caetera. We can admit that this animation is very primitive and that the interpolated drawings are only a small part of that film. As there is some appear-disappear stuff, as there is Blackton's hand moving in front of the chalkboard, and as most of the animation appearing in that film is cut-out animation : the fat man with moustache who plays with his hat and with his umbrella (which appears onscreen with animation), and the clown playing with his poodle and his hoop. We can also admit that Emile Cohl's animations are a little more sophisticated : in his 1st little serie, there is the hero, Fantoche, who runs, who smiles and plays tricks to the Gendarme. There is the seduced wife, panic-stricken as her husband understands he is cuckold. Yes, with Fantoche's adventures, there are the very first animated sequences which describe something much more complex, and funny, than in Blackton's "Humorous Phases of Funny Faces." |
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Apr 21 2004, 11:02 AM
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#29
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Advanced Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 78 Joined: 9-September 03 Member No.: 281 |
This would probably fit better in the TV Animation forum, but one error I can remember, out of the many that exist, in "The Encyclopedia Of Animated Cartoon Series" is the assertion that Josie is the one who wanted all the attention and suffered blows to her ego in "Josie And The Pussycats."
That said, I agree that it was the lack of availability of many cartoons at the time the books were prepared that led to some of the errors. I have been a lifelong fan of Popeye cartoons, yet found when I finally obtained good copies of some of the films that my fond memories were not always correct. |
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Apr 21 2004, 05:39 PM
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#30
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![]() Advanced Member ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,926 Joined: 15-September 03 From: Mid Michigan Member No.: 299 |
Adding to this problem is the perception of the writer, who after a number of viewings y became confused. This was the problem in the pre-videotape accessiblity days.
We now have the luxury of reviewing and checking countlessly for such details. This should certainly improve on the accuracy of future histories. -------------------- Ray Pointer[font="Comic Sans MS"][/font]
"Inkwell Images" |
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